It seems like Rodney Dangerfield's line "I can't get no respect" pertains to arranger keyboards too.

Just got back from visiting a national chain music store in my area, inquiring about arranger keyboards and the sales guys (week end warrior type musicians) gave me a weird look like "why would a 'real' musician be interested in playing an arranger keyboard". There seems to be a strong (unjustly so) mis-conception amongst some pro musicians (especially here in the US), that arranger keyboards are simply back up accompaniment machines (similar to karaoke) designed for people with no real musical talent or taste. Only after sitting down and playing them a few tunes in full keyboard mode were they finally convinced that the arranger keyboard can truly sound very professional.

Could it be that these guys feel threatened by ever improving arranger keyboard technology and fear they will be replaced by us? Of course I would prefer to play with other 'live' musicians, but the fact of the matter is, you make more $ as a solo 'one man band' act.

As an arranger keyboard musician, "you" are both the band leader (conductor) and all the performing members of the band as well. The arranger keyboard offers 'new' creative challenges for the 'live' performing keyboard musician. This includes knowing when to trigger drum fills (at just the right moment) for added spontaneous realism; incorporating a variety of arranger playing styles/modes and implementing vocalizer backup for added variety/spice, and perfecting playing techniques specifically unique to arranger keyboards (style, orchestration, chord voicings,on bass lines, panel memory, etc). To achieve the highest level of professionalisn, arranger keyboard performance requires not only musicianship skills but many other specialized skills specifically unique to arranger keyboards as well.

I play the Technics KN5000 with hard drive and have scores of songs stored which contain customized song specific styles (organized by genre). I also store a bank of styles which cover a wide genre of song styles for those 'audience request tunes'. This makes for quick access (almost instantly) to just about any song style or specific customized song as needed, because for live perfomance, you don't want 'big gaps' between songs which might bring down the house energy level). I also use a 4 pedal foot controller unit + a single pedal foot controller. These are used for triggering drum fills, style & sound changes, and other parameters. To stabilize and keep the pedals in a "consistent spot" beneath the keyboard, I built a lightweight wooden pedal holder (out of plywood) which is secured between the keyboard stands' legs (simple Quicklock X stand). This way I can be always confident that I'm hitting the correct foot pedal without having to look down.

Interested in hearing from others of you re: your indiviual arranger playing style, techniques, tips, opinions, etc.

Make music and be happy,



Scott

San Francisco Bay Area (California), USA

I'm answering from Germany. As a matter of fact the arrangers have become the most normal things for musicians performing in the field of entertainment/ dance music. Only the more "conceited" high-browed studio musicians don't want to admit that they also sometimes use arrangers. A friend of mine owns a studio and produces jingles for local adverisements. Whenever he is short of time or ideas he goes for the good old X1.
But coming back to the main point. I started playing dance music back in 1982. At first we were three in the band. Keyboard, guitar and drums. Me, on the keyboard, playing the bass lines with my left hand. Then since 1986 we started to perform as a duo, consisting of keyboard/ guitar. The first keyboard I used for this was a Yamaha PS 6000 with a Korg Poly 61, a Korg DW 8000 and a DX 21. Next was a Solton TS 4, a accompaniment-machine with only three octaves just for playing accompaniment patterns. I used this together with a DX7 and a Korg T3. When the sound of the arranger keyboards became much better I sold my sythies and went for two arrangers. Nowadays I am playing the Solton MS 100, predecessor of the X1 and the Roland G1000.
Definitely more than 90 percent of the musicians who play dance music at parties are nowadays using arrangers nowadays. We for example sometimes play gigs with four musicians without a drummer. We have keyboard, guitar, western-guitar/ trombone and trumpet/percussion in this case. It's sad but most of the hotels don't even have the space for a large band with a drumkit anymore.
Best wishes from Germany
Markus

PS.: I've heard rumours about a new keyboard from Solton which is to be presented at the Frankfurt Music Fair next year in March. As soon as I get to know more I'll post a note about it.

Hi Markus,

Fasinating to read your how your band has evolved with the advent of your arranger keyboard. Sounds like you have played some great classic synths over the years. My first synth was a Korg T3; then traded that for a Fatar 1176 keyboard controller with Korg X5DR, Yamaha MU80, and General Music Piano Expander modules. My first arranger unit was a Roland RA800 (table top module version of the G800) connected to the Fatar. I soon got tired of lugging all this equipment to/from gigs when a couple of years ago I discovered the Technics KN5000 arranger keyboard which I have been performing with exclusively ever since.

The beauty of the arranger keyboard is the flexibility it provides (adding/eliminating) live musicians as clients budgets and/or room size allows. It is indeed sad (but also a fact we have to live with) that music has become just a financial commodity' to hotel and club managers to maximize profits. The hotels find it more profitable to add a couple more tables for patrons and eliminate the drummer.

I am pleased to hear that arranger keyboards are accepted professionally in Germany. I think you are right about the snob factor which seems to prevail among many musicians here in the States. I also think some prejudice might be borne out from earlier generation arrangers which were vastly inferior in both sound quality and auto accompaniment styles as well as their prior reputation as "K-Mart special" shopping mall toys. Arranger keyboards have certainly "come a long way" since then.

It's exciting to follow the latest developments in arranger keyboard technology so I'm anxious to find out what Solton will come out next with to top the X1 (I'm hoping it will include the implementation of more advanced (rootless) chord voicing recognition features, or better yet, a feature which will allow "us", the musician to program our own custom chord recognition tables). Solton!!!, are you listening?

Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 10-29-2000).]

Scott, I think it's more ignorance than snobbishness. The musicians come into the music store and don't even go into the department where the Arrangers are kept. They think of them as toys, like the old Cascios were. Also a lot of the music store personnel do not understand the arrangers and treat them as lesser devices.
But, when a musician comes into the club where I play, they want to see what it is that's making the music. When they see that it is just one keyboard, there is no disrespect; rather, they marvel at how one person can make the music without the use of sequences or recordings.
People with "class", whether they are musicians or not, will give credit where it is due. Those without class are not worth worrying about in the first place.
Maybe, eventually, there will be enough Arranger exposure in the U.S. to reach the European acceptance level.
I began using Arrangers around 1987. I believe the first one was a Yamaha PSR 70! I used an external drum machine, and a DX7 midied to a Yamaha Piano Module. From there it was PSR6100, maybe a 6300?, Technics KN800, 1000, 2000, PSR 500, 510, 620, KN5000, Roland G800, PSR 8000, Solton X1, PSR 740, and now PSR 9000. That's roughly one per year!
The first keyboard where the external units could reasonably be eliminated was the KN2000. I still maintain it is one of the finest arranger keyboards ever produced.
DonM

Scottyee
I am new to this forum, all though I have been reading it for awhile, I played many a solo gig(USA NY)But haven't played out in about 7 yrs. When I did solo had Roland U-20 with RA-95 then got a RA95 also Korg M1. Did very well, played alot,had alot of fun. I would like to get back into it again. I have a Korg I30(about a year)I am looking at several others (1)G1000*only reason price $1195USD now!(2)Solton X1(3)Korg PA80*when it is released(4)General Music SK7608can't seem to find anyone locally who sells them Technics is only sold here in Piano/home instrument store and they are VERY overpriced.
What do you think. Looking for feedback

I think the prejudice is very real and strong in the U.S. All the pro shops in Silicon Valley have a lot of arrangers on display, but no salesman knows how to use them. It is strange to see a PSR-9000 languishing in the corner.

What is funny is the hyprocrisy of those who reject arranger keyboards, but desire drum machines, groove machines, arpeggiators, pattern sequencers, rhythm loop samples, beat munging, chord-recognizing Vocalists, etc. There are those that use mini-disc backing for live performances, but would not use an arranger.

We even see some of the same prejudice in this group, but it is reserved for Casios. Somehow low-end Yamahas and Rolands are "morally" superior to comparably priced Casios. I think Casio's MZ-2000 is a serious mid-range contender. Maybe Casio needs to introduce high-end synths with a new nameplate, like "Lexus" for Toyota, and "Infinity" for Nissan. I think that Scott is showing that musicians that let their prejudices blind them from new equipment are going to lose in the marketplace.

Clif,

Right you are about the general lack of arranger keyboard knowledge (and interest) by music sales staff here in the US, at least here in the Northern California Bay Area where we both live. It seems to me that it is "only" because Roland, Yamaha, and Korg produce successful selling mainstream contemporary synthesizers, that their arranger keyboard models are marginally accepted and sold (abeit relegated to a dark corner of the store).

Right you are about the hipocrasy regarding those guys who don't hesistate to purchase drum machines, groove boxes, sample loops, etc, yet reject arranger keyboards as a toy.

To further emphasize the "brand" image problem, I have actually had to cover up the brand logo on my Technics KN5000 (covering it with my own name/logo) because some clubs and clients think that unless your keyboard displays the designer plate names: Roland, Yamaha, or Korg on it, that it would not sufficiently impress the audience that the keyboard was a pro keyboard and would then reflect badly on the club. It's troubling to think that brand name indentification/image is more important (or at least of equal importance) than the music itself, even though a lesser known brand keyboard may in fact perform and sound better. Strange times.


Scott

DonM,
WOW, You have certainly owned quite an impressive collection of keyboards. The Technics KN2000 certainly was a landmark arranger keyboard and remains a classic. I particularly love Technics "ease of use navigation", especially for live performance. Don, could you possibly point out again the differences (pluses and minuses) between the PSR9000 and Technics arranger boards?

JCKeeys,
The listed prices for Technics keyboards at Piano/home organ stores are typically extremely inflated. Even if they were to sell the keyboard at half their list price, they would still be making a healthy profit. My current 'personal favorite' arranger keyboard still are the Technics KN6000 and KN5000 (both have great sounds, styles and are especially easy to operate). You can now pick up a brand new KN5000 for £999 (approx $1,468 USD). Current price for a brand new KN6000 is around £1,499 (approx. $2,200 USD). Seems like a lot of bang for the buck to me. I found these prices on the internet at:
http://www.whitleybayorgans.co.uk/pr01.htm

A US Technics dealer who has a repuation for great prices is Keppler's music in West Seneca, NY.
http://www.kepplermusic.com/


You might even be able to find cheaper prices elsewhere, I don't know. The price for these boards may be higher than the Roland G1000 but I really think you get a lot more for your money in both styles/sounds and most importantly, the Technics keyboard's ease of use. I found the Roland RA800 arranger much less intuitive than the KN5000 which is so well designed that you can be up and running (gigging) with it almost immediately. On the contrary, it took quite a while to master the Roland arranger.

Though I continue to love and perform with the KN5000 regularly, I am also looking for another arranger board to augment the KN5000. Yamaha PSR9000 pro, Solton X1, General Music WK8 SE, Korg PA80 or?

Can anyone out there tell me what the current street price for a brand new Solton X1 (both with and without a hard drive) is? Also, what are the current street prices for the GM WK8 and Yamaha PSR9000, and projected street prices of the upcoming Yamaha PSR9000 pro and Korg PA80?

Scott

So, I'll ask George Kaye--is there a significantly lower profit margin on Casios that relegate them to toy status? Cynics preach that profit drives consumer tastes. So I wonder . . . ?

About my past/current instrument setups: I started in '72 as a folk rock solo act armed with my old Gibson axe and Shure mic run through a metallic blue tuck 'n' rolled Kustom amp which I bought from the manufacturer a few miles away from my Kansas home of Ark City. That amp looked so cool. In '74, I duo-ed with a rock drummer who'd apprenticed with a touring swing band and could do it all. In '76, I added Crumar manual bass pedals and learned to play a fretboard with my hands and a keyboard with my feet. (Took three months in my basement to get the music into my shoes!) In '79, Bobby Wiley of Wichita KS got me into the NAMM in Chicago where I saw B.B. King demo-ing a "Lucille" in a booth with about 20 curious people milling about him; where I first heard of the upstart magazine, "Rolling Stone" which was enticing people to be photoed behind a carnival-esque mag cover with cut-outs for their faces; and where I bought the first model of the Italian arranger for guitarists called the "AutoOrchestra," a tempermental analog (duh! it's the '70s, Jim) pedal driven unit that I refused to bring to the stage because I didn't want to lose my drummer friend. Circumstances found me moving to Phoenix in '80 where I used two successive models of AutoOrchestras as a single act, then segued into Soltons (as the AO maker became Ketron). I've had three Soltons and, years ago, added a keyboard to the act to play either live or MIDI sequences I generate on Cakewalk (pre-Tune 1000 days). My hands are occupied with guitar playing and Solton button pushing and my feet are doing the left foot pedalboard, the right foot volume/4-switch pedal, and sundry effects/sustain pedals/buttons. When an occasional curious person looks behind the screen I have to block the distracting blur of my feet, I tell 'em it's just like driving a clutch car and they get the picture. A weird by-product of playing pedalboards for so many years is that, when I get scrambled and "lose" a song's chord structure ("What key am I in?!?!"), I just look at my feet and, 90% of the time, the ol' twinkle toes are right in the musical groove and I can get the guitar back online! I swear that the nerve ganglia of my lower extremeties are better musicians than my brain is!

Jim Henry

Scott,
I have never encountered any ridicule from other musicians about me playing an arranger keyboard in the last 20 years that I am giging Solo to thousands of people a week. As far as what other musicians think? Who cares? They wish they could do what I do night after night while they languish in their little weekend bar gigs due to their laziness when they could be playing bigger venues, just takes talent and motivation. I do appreciate and respect anyone that plays "LIVE" vs a DJ also. But anyone that disrespects a person playing solo with an arranger keyboard or guitar or any solo combo to make music and make people happy by themslves deserves Big Time Kudos my friend. I have people every night looking under me, over me, and thru me to see where all that music is coming from? Inside I laugh, then on breaks they start with the questions. Hi where do you get those nice tapes? Do you use CD's? Is that you singing? Hahahahahah yes Don M is right IGNORANCE prevails in the masses regarding Solo performers for sure. DJ's have decimated us Live performers, but I will never let them ruin my act as long as I can continue to play live I will always have the Upper Hand to throw in their faces. Anyone can play records or cds, sheeeeesh give me a break!!!!
Playing and arranger keyboard on a professional level and I mean Nightly 320 gigs a year is an ART FORM for sure. I play 11 instruments but solo keyboard is my bag.
Never be ashamed or let anyone intimidate you about playing arranger keyboards, you are doing something that 90% of the people cannot do and only Wish they could. Salesman? don't make me laugh. Plus you get paid, eat, and enjoy it to the Max! You are in control and have the ability to be the commander of your arranger keyboard Starship so to speak and can have creative control on every song, changing sounds at will to suit your audience and yourself. That is what makes it a pleasure to do. Yes 40 years playing my Accordian, Vox, Farfisa, assort keyboards, drum machines, Korg M1/ Ra90, i3, i30, Kn5000, Solton x1, are my weapons and with years of experience and talent I hit the Bulls Eye very night! Be Proud and Play SOLO as much as you can!! Most of all BE HAPPY DOING IT!!!!!


sorry for my rant, this topic just gets me nuts :>)


Donny

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-30-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-30-2000).]